[MUSIC] To my left is Dr. Ann Tiao, who is a lecturer at the University of Pennsylvania graduate School of Education in the higher education division. Welcome, Anne. >> Thank you for having me today, Aviva. >> Great, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself and giving a little longer background about your work. >> Sure, as Aviva said, I'm Dr. Anne Tiao. I am currently a lecturer in the Graduate School of Education at the University of Pennsylvania. I just recently stepped down as Assistant Dean. In the college of education at Rowan University, and as Assistant Dean for research and graduate education. My background, actually, is in statistics, I have an undergraduate and masters degree in statistics, and early in my career, I worked for Intel Corporation as both as a statistician and engineer and eventually as team leader. And it's at that point, that I started my work on teams and training and management. After that part of my career was over, and I came back to get my PhD in education, I started working with teams, and with, and collaborating with fellow administrators in the higher education space. >> So, you've done research in your education work about Asian Americans. >> Mm-hm. >> And as you write about, there is this myth of the model minority of Asian Americans. So, can you tell us a little bit about this, and why it's problematic? >> Sure, so, this myth is actually well discussed within the Asian American, or sometimes Asian American and Pacific Islander space. Sometimes called APA for Asian Pacific Americans, or API for Asian Pacific Islanders. And the model minority myth actually, while it sounds like something recent, actually started in the 1960s. It was actually written, an article in a newspaper, about Asian Americans. At the time, Asian Americans really did not emigrate to the United States in large numbers until the Immigration Act was passed in 1965. And in 1966, at the height of the Civil Rights Movement, there was an article written about how, essentially, Asian Americans were the model minority. And they wanted to point that out because they felt that Asian Americans were much more quiet, they didn't voice their opinions in contrast to African Americans, who were doing sit-ins and protesting at the time. And so, this really started out in it's initial stages as a way to divide minorities. Divide and conquer kind of strategy. Researchers have actually gone back and looked through the newspapers at the time, and the language that was used. And this is their primary conclusion at this time-frame. What was interesting is that 1980s, when this myth kind of made a re-appearance, this, at that time, they were talking about the over representation, in quotes, of Asian Americans on our campuses, how they clearly had made it, that there are outcomes such as income, inability to get to college, or equal to whites. The reason this is a problematic concept is that if you look underneath, that's not very true. The Asian Pacific American, or API, Diaspora, covers probably more than 50 ethnicities, maybe 100 languages. There's huge diversity, right? Somebody who's from Pakistan, and somebody who's from Indonesia, and somebody who's from Japan are all considered under that Asian American umbrella. And then you have Pacific Islander, such from Guam and Samoa. All very, very different, different backgrounds, different ways of getting to the United States and emigrating here. And so, as a result, when you take all these disparate areas, certain groups can wash out others, so, when you actually look at the numbers where they may look at an aggregate, if you look at a lot of those numbers Asian American immigrants who were actually born in another country and come here, have very good outcomes. But if you start looking at Asian Americans, those who were born and raised here, their outcomes are not the same. And they're also, a lot of times, skewed towards particular fields, and not because necessarily that they're better in those fields, but they're being encouraged to go to those fields. So, this is the problem when you have myths and stereotypes. The myth of an Asian American is that they're really good at math and science. And the other stereotypes could be that they're not very good leaders, or they're very quiet. They think more collectively. Their parents are much more involved, all of which have, actually, as myths, stereotypes, been debunked. That's not true for the entire Asian American diaspora. And as a result, by doing this, we have actually ignored some of the problems in the United States with regards to Asian Americans. It's easy to not have to build services and help them if you think that they they've made it, quote unquote. So, as a result, these kinds of things end up being very problematic. Asians are kind of, Asian Americans are the one of the things that they'll call them is perpetual foreigners, right? There's no, there's no way of assimilation from a look standpoint, that we're ever going to look like a typical, what people think of as a typical American. And so, a microaggression that would be common for me, is I constantly get, where are you from? And my response is Kansas, because that's where I was born and raised. And then I'll get, the next follow up question is almost always where are you really from? The question there that people really want to ask is what's my ethnicity? But the microaggression there, or the implication is I don't belong here, I must be from somewhere else. And as a result, that becomes a problematic issue, because you're always assuming, or somebody's always assuming that you are not part of the American conversation. So, a lot of the times, people will say something what you said, where people say where are you from, and not realize that's problematic. It's this sort of strange curiosity thinking that Asian Americans are not part of this landscape. In your view, how do we stop the microgressions from happening, or limit them from happening, especially because I don't think people realize the impact of what they're saying. >> I have learned over time that people are not, especially for microaggressions, these are not things that are intentional, and people are not intentionally trying to be rude. They really are curious, right? And so, I think it depends. What I usually tell students when I'm working with them, or when I'm doing workshops, is that you really should be intentional. You should intentionally think about what triggers you, right? So, that's a microaggression for me. A microaggression for you, you've said, would be different, would be different for other people. But everyone has some kind of thing where it either bothers them, it triggers them, or something like that. So, I always tell my students, understand your own triggers, and then deliberately think about what is it that you want to do to handle that the next time. If you haven't thought about it and it bother's you, then you are not going to have a response that maybe you're going to say to yourself ten minutes later, or the next day. Darn, I should have said that. So, if you think about deliberately, the next time you encounter something like that, you can actually address it. So, for me, I typically use that as a teachable moment, right? Or I will, not necessary in a lecturing way, but if somebody says where are you really from, my question is, do you want to know my ethnicity? So, that way, I can put the words in their mouth maybe that they don't have, but that they understand that that's not where I'm from. Or at least, that's not how I personally see myself from. And so, then that way, they have the words the next time when they want to address this with somebody. And so, what I always tell students is, is that a lot of times when you're triggered, when something makes you angry, you're going to have two responses. It's a fight or flight, right? So, you're either going to be angry, or you're going to want to just run away. So, if you are deliberate, and you think about these things beforehand, you don't to have to do either, you will already have your response. And many times if you practice this, or you have thought about it beforehand, you're much more prepared for these kind of small things that happen. >> That makes sense. In your opinion, are there other consequences to microaggressions for Asian Americans? >> I mean, not just for Asian Americans. The issue is that when any given person experiences maybe multiple microaggressions in any given day, when you finally interact with that person, they're really angry for some reason. You don't know why, and I always tell students don't assume, right? Because you don't know what kind of day any given person has had, especially given the conversation these days in America about race and race relations. Especially for African Americans, who sometimes tend to get pulled over, some people would claim because of their race. If those kind of things happened to you on a daily basis, you're walking down the sidewalk, and somebody walks to the other side to avoid you because of what they think you might be. All of those are microaggressions. And if you have six or seven of them happen to you on your way to work, that can be really aggravating, and you will have already been kind of riled up and uncomfortable. And so, it's really hard to get settled into the day, right? And so, your day may be different from another person's day, so don't assume if somebody comes in, and they're having a bad day, that this is the way this person is, and they're difficult to work with. You can't make that assumption upfront. So, get to know people. Get to understand them. The research actually shows the more you interact with people, the more you're able to be able to interact with even more different people. You want to bring as much diversity into your own life as possible, to help you be the best person that you can, to fulfill your own potential. >> So, I'm curious if you've experienced a setting where you've been able to have that conversation with someone who's inflicted a microaggression. Or if you've seen in an environment you've been in, someone able to come forward about that. And how does that work exactly? >> Sure, and so, I think that that's, as I said, even if I go back to the example that I used for my own microaggression, right? There are definitely times, and you have to judge, and this sometimes does take experience, where if it's in a campus setting, and I'm working with students. And somebody asks me and challenges me where I'm from, I will definitely take the time in which to be able to address that with the person. Now, and this is where getting to know people as individuals really is important, because if it's somebody I know, I can have an easier time building rapport with them. I have also learned that there are certain times when you don't address, something that's an unsafe place. You have to be either identified too. You shouldn't necessarily always challenge an every situation, because as I was talking to my students, they need to be safe for you is wow. And so, I always, the funny example I always give my students is I had somebody in a, I was actually at a buffet in preparation for cruise. And in this situation, and for full disclosure, I identify as a Taiwanese American. And this woman from another part of the country comes up to me, we were talking and chatting in lunch. She asked me where I'm from. And I told her I was born and raised in Kansas, and she goes no, where are you really from? I didn't challenge her on that, but I did say my parents are from Taiwan. Sometimes I choose to answer that way, because, again, that's not where I'm from, but that is actually where my parents are from. And she told me, she goes, I just love Thai food. And so, I didn't know what to say to that, because I could get into the conversation about Thailand and Taiwan are actually two different countries, but I felt that would actually be more embarrassing for the individual than it would be for me. So, I just said that's great, and I ended the conversation there. So, that just didn't feel like the appropriate space to have a teachable moment, so I didn't. But so, I think for everybody, it needs to make sense for them, but my comment would be if it's somebody who is a co-worker, somebody who you're going to see on a regular basis. It definitely needs to be addressed, now, whether the circumstances that you go through your management chain, or whether you go to that person individually, or whether you go to a third-party, it really has to depend on your work situation and the expectations of your particular group. If you don't have the greatest relationship, maybe with your manager, that's probably not the safest place, again, safety is important, right? Because you don't want it to happen or happen and get even worse, right? So, you have to find ways in which to make that work for yourself, as well as the other individual. So, I would definitely try different ways, like I said, mentors and support groups are a great way to be able to float that idea, how do I deal with this next time? And like I said, if you've taken the time to think about it and work on it, a lot of times, you'll be prepared when that next situation comes up.
