Thank you very much for coming to. >> Welcome. >> Could you tell me a little bit about entrepreneurship in China? >> I think it's a very hot topic these days. As you know primarily introduced this idea of innovation and entrepreneurship. And it has been a very hot topic all through China, especially in the more developed cities like Tianjin and Shanghai and Honcho and those places. It's a shift of mindset. If you think about ten years ago, most graduates, young graduates who are unique, their top choice of jobs, is either to join the government as a civil servant or go to some really big multinationals and then climb up the career ladder. But these days, there have been a lot of showcases of some successful entrepreneurs and also the government is also encouraging that we shouldn't be sending all our talents to the civil service. So that's why I think it's becoming now very common for university young graduates to go and do startups. There's also been an abundant of funding. I think some of the traditional investors who have been focusing either on property or like manufacturing, they are slowly shifting to, I think the more, they called themselves VCs or private PEs, but reality is they're trying to find new areas of investment. And they're looking at this startup phenomenon as a potential area whether it's good for investment. >> Right, so it's good to hear that the young people are very entrepreneurial as well as for having good enjoyed western support. Now, what about foreigners who want to go to China, do you think they're going to prepare themselves for some cultural shock? >> Actually there's quite a number, various countries, I mean, it's not the normal ones that you would usually think it's like U.S. or the U.K. I mean one example is, one of my incubatees, who was originally from Chinese University in Hong Kong, he found his CTO in Shanghai, in our incubation center who was a Ukrainian, from Ukraine. And I think there is a, obviously, there is a different culture. I mean, not just China, I mean anywhere you go, the local consumption, the consumers behavior, the culture, will be different. In China traditionally it's not like for example, the Europe or the United States where you have a long established value chain, for example, retails and things like that. Because if you go to like the second tier or third tier cities, you see some of these infrastructures who are not in place, because China only have start to develop, open up in the past 35 years. So, it become, on one side, it become very easy for entrepreneurs to actually enter the market because the vested interest is not there. On the other hand, the consumers hasn't been trained They're not the typical consumer you find in he east coast, west coast, that kind of thing. So you need to understand, what are their usual consuming behavior? I think in China, obviously the Internet Plus is now the thing what they are now promoting. So people are very receptive to example or to all kinds of new things, because they have not developed the old habit yet, so that's a good sign. The other side could be a shock, I wouldn't say shock, but would take some learning curve is, China is what they call a socialist market economy. >> Yes. >> Which means, they had changed from actually a planning economy 35 years ago, since 1978, so 38 years ago to what they call now a socialistic market economy. So it's not a full market economy. There's still a lot of approval. They're promoting this thing, the free trade zone. China has one of those where you have this income negative list which means if what you're proposing to do is not on the negative list, then you're allowed to do it. But this is just the beginning. The traditionally, the local officials that used to the positive list, which means they tell you what you can do, and what you want to do is not on the list, you better ask or seek approval, and sometimes is difficult to seek approval because the bureaucrats do not know how to approve it. So especially about a new things. So also there is, I think like other countries as well, I mean there's certain controls on areas, for example if you want to go into media, if you want to go into finance, insurance, there are regulatory bodies, they ask different regulations. Some of them are not open to foreign investors. So I think that the advice to follow entrepreneurs who want to go into China is ask, find a good local partner, try to understand more, don't just assume it's just like everybody else. >> Right, if I may summarize that, so you're saying first of all, the market is still not yet fully developed so therefore lots of opportunity? >> Yes. >> The consumer or your customers will be a bit more open minded, they're more receptive. >> Yes. >> At the same time they need to be a little bit more educated, they are not the typical consumer we expect in the western world. And also for foreigners, they need to understand the policy of the government. >> Yes. >> What sort of things are being supported, what things they can try, and what area may deem more sensitive. >> Exactly, and the other thing to understand in China is the policy is a very important element, whereas if you're in the US, or even in Hong Kong, you want to look at the regulatory, you look at laws, regulations. But in China, other than, on top of these, there are these things called policies. Some of them are very positive things, actually, they help you. On the other hand, they also restrict certain things. So policies are usually not laws, they're not passed by legislatives, they are actually administrative kind of- >> Directional. >> Directional thing. >> So go with the flow, what the policy says. >> Yes, follow the policy. [LAUGH] >> So these are some of the things that, especially foreigners should understand when they're doing business in China. Some people say, because China is sometimes deemed to be a country where copy a lot of ideas and different product and so sometimes the people think, we don't need to be innovative or creative, what's your view on this? >> First of all, you need to be innovative in any market. >> You need to be innovative in any market. >> Any market. Traditional yes, there has been a lot of criticism about IP infringement, about people trying to copy a U.S. idea. I think that is quite normal. If you think about it, the Japan started as a copycat. >> Yes, like 40 years ago. Yes, they did. >> Germany starts a copycat of England. America started as a copycat of Europe. You know every country when they first step up, they try to learn from others. And then slowly they start to be build up their own things. I think China is already now pass the area where you think copying would get you very far. If you look at for example, We Chat. Yes, you may say, that's a copy of Whats App. No it's not. It's a total different animal. So they may have copied the ideas or referenced the ideas of something, but they would have to revolutionize and change it to make it. A, more receptive to the local market. And B, maybe some additional functionality and things like that. No, China is now a net IP exporter. That is very different from compare would say ten years ago. So there's a lot of IP laws, IP protections, IP registration patents and things like that. Now, it's still yet to be developed. It's allowed its patents register, they may not be very useful or commercially viable. At least they're getting there. Another thing I think which is important if you are trying to start a business in China, I think it's not just China, even in the US, it seems like in this day and age patent or copyright protection can only get you this far. What you need to do is speed to market. You know you need to be fast, faster than your copycats. People start to copy you, you have version two, you have version three and you are leading the market. >> Sustaining your advantage. >> Exactly, exactly. >> So we are seeing now, China has entered a different phase where it start, it's not actually exporting international property. But we still see a coexisting of that, we still see some copycat exists. >> Yes, I think you see the same in other countries. Even the US or even, I was in Singapore last month and I saw some of these names of retailers, and they're very similar to some of the big retail names. >> Right. >> I say, what's happening? >> So, they always assist. But again, as I said, copycats can only get you this far. You can't command premium if you're a copycat. So you have to be innovative, you have to be market leader. You have to command a premium in order to get high profit. >> Can you tell us a little bit more how the government is supporting entrepreneurs in China? >> Obviously, various local municipal cities has different policy. But most of them they would have aid. They have some special fundings. For example, to have fundings for retrainees from foreign university graduates. In Shenzhen and a lot of cities, they have this thing where they have a special, basically, incubation park for Chinese nationals graduated from famous universities in the US or Europe and coming back to start. So they actually get from funding. Half a million maybe, 1 million maybe, a lot of others give free rental. So this community centers they give you like 6 months to 12, 16 months of free rent. Another thing we do for example in the Shanghai government, is that we do a lot of events. We organize not only we welcome incubatees and give them free rent, we also organize a lot of awesome pitching events. We invite the investors; Angel investors, VCPs to come and look at these projects. We also ask successful entrepreneurs and also the investor to give lectures and sharings about how to, for example, pitch an investor, how to succeed, how to structure a company. All the way to how to get IP, IPO operation. So these are not direct subsidy but they are actually very useful to a lot of these entrepreneurs. >> Right, so what about, you mentioned, those have all, some of the returnees from universities, overseas universities, and are those programs opened to local student or other entrepreneurs? >> They are different programs. I mean, the returnees is one special areas. But the locals they also differences at different policy. For example in Shenzhen, we also have a fund for high tech start ups. I haven't ever applied one so I don't know exactly the procedures but what happen is that if you have certain patents and you think you can commercialize, you can go and apply. And they actually give you cash as well. If you think about it, people like BYD, they started as one of those. >> Right, right. >> because one of my friend told me he introduced them to some of the local town mayors in those towns. Like very small, small village kind of party celebrities. And at that time they gave them a free piece of land, and they gave them some free subsidy, and they also gave them some I think interest free loan to get it started. But it varies from case to case. Obviously a case like BYD, I think the government think it's a really revolutionary Rationalise new technology. If you're not as advanced or as revolutionized as those, you may not get as much subsidy, so it really varies. >> So it sounds like they're funding like free rent and then some pitching events and programs and even mentorship. >> Yes, and also there's a, which is, I don't know if other countries does that. But they have these thing called interest subsidy. So it says is, well, I can't judge whether you're a good project or not. You go to the bank and try to get a loan, but I will pay you the interest. I pay you back the interest. So effectively, that interest for your loan. >> Yes. >> But that's very good. But they're what they say, is I'm relying on commercial bank with your project, the survival one. I think that's a good thing. >> That's interesting because usually a start up will have difficulty getting a loan, right, they don't have collateral. They're sometimes pre-revenue, so if that's a big challenge for them to get a loan from the banks. >> Yes, it is, but as everywhere else. I think if you look at, obviously, Chinese government but also I've been sometimes involved with the Hong Kong government as well. It's actually very hard for a government civil servant to determine whether a project is going to fly or not. So, they have to have a reference on something. They either have a external committee for VC's or they have like, this [INAUDIBLE] they will have the banks decide. In general, the Chinese banks, these days, they are a bit more aggressive, I would say, in terms of supporting the startups, okay. Not so much, I think this is probably the same in the US. But Hong Kong bankers are very conservative, right? They collaterals, they want bricks and mortars. But they won't give you a loan based on the PowerPoint. In China they will but it's probably like a micro-fund kind of thing. >> It wouldn't be a large sum of money. >> It won't be a large sum of money. >> To avoid the big risk. >> Yes. >> So tell us a bit more about the program you are in charge, the one in Shanghai, how does that work? >> We started in December 2014, okay. Basically, we were a piece of land. It's about 50,000 square meters and then we build on top of it about 20,000 square meters of office space, and the lecture theaters, and some service centers, and a small exhibition hall and then a tennis court. So what happened is we kind of created an environment. So there are three blocks for this coworking space for entrepeneurs, and then we partner with what we call incubation partners, or platforms, we actually call them platforms. But, basically, these are Who will nominate some of these incubatees to come in. And then they will hand-hold them, they will teach them how to pitch in. How to fundraising, they may invest initial funding on them. They also try to create an environment where different entrepreneurs, I think that the special thing about Shanghai it's very close to Hong Kong. So we now have about 160 teams in it, half of which exactly half is from Hong Kong. So they can, the Hong Kong teams and the amendment Chinese team, they would mingle with each other, there are two coffee shops and there's lots of grasslands. And people would kind of chat over there and sometimes there's synergies where you that there are two different companies will partner together. >> Right. >> Even joint force, so that was the original purpose actually of creating this E-hub where we say we want. because if you look at Hong Kong youngsters they have good international exposure, relatively better language skills, they understand how the capitalist market work and things like that. But they're usually not very technically savvy. And then in Chinese like in Shenzhen, but also in some other cities, they're a lot of the forces. >> Right. >> But they may not be very market sensitive, they may not be very financially sensitive. >> So each party has something to offer. >> Exactly, so what I was saying is if these people can get together something might happen. Well, we don't know we don't want to just glue them. If I want to create an environment and then they just [INAUDIBLE] to each other. >> [INAUDIBLE] >> [CROSSTALK] Are there any foreigners coming to these programs? >> They are, it's not a lot, though. Actually not in our program but I know it Nanchang which is close by a 20 minutes drive from our park base actually much bigger software park called the Nanchang software park. There there are actually quite a number of foreigners and various nationalities, you'll see like Europe people and even some non-Caucasians. And they kind of start their own company there, hire some locals, they learn speaking Mandarin. If you go over there and you go to the bars and the coffee shops you'll run into them but in Shanghai, so far, it's only a handful. I don't know how it happened I mean we do not have a special program that aim at this non-Chinese market. Somehow, they called their friends or whatever they just come in. >> Although there's no special program for attracting them, if they do come to China, is it easy for them to set up a company? >> It's all relative. Compared to Hong Kong it's much hotter. But Shanghai is a special zone, we actually opened up quite a few things. For example, we have a special policy and China is not as simple as getting a working visa, okay, as you know. So you have to register, you have to do a lot of few things. But if you go in to Shanghai, for example, to do a startup, and then we will help you to file, you're in a foreign, it's called foreign talent, [FOREIGN] or what have you. But they help you to get the working Visa. We also have a tax rebate system. As you know, China's, if your personal income tax can be as high as 40 something percent. Whereas in Hong Kong is only 16, I think. And then what happened is we will, Hong Kong is 15, in Hong Kong, in China however what we do is we have a equalization system. So if you pay tax, we still ask you to pay tax, the China's tax are paid on a monthly basis. >> Yeah. >> At the end of the year, we will pay you back whatever is above 15% of your income. >> So equalizing the tax, yeah. >> Exactly. >> So there is assistance for foreigners on fulfilling the procedures of coming to China. Although, of course, there will be some standard procedure. >> Exactly, if they have a goal for the procedure, then people will help you and also we try to simplify it. >> Right, and do you think this accelerator, is it a good stepping stone for any company? >> Yes, I think if you are, especially if you are foreigner, I think just blindly going to China and try to start a company, you may not know exactly what you need to know. Whereas, if you join one of these incubation programs or senator programs, at least, the people there answer your questions. There might be people similar to your situation nearby that you can ask for arm. And so if you have a problem, you know where to get help. So I think it's a good thing. >> And if any entrepreneur start in one city, how easy it is in China to expand beyond the first city that you start your company in? >> I think it's as difficult as in other countries as well. >> Probably. >> You know if you have a company in Silicon Valley and try move New York, it's not easy, right? I mean, that's relatively simple features but also, we have to understand, I keep telling young people that goes into China, I say, China is not one big market. It's many big market. Think about it, the size, the geographical area of China is 95% of the European continent. >> Yes. >> And the population is 180%. [LAUGH] >> Yeah, so it's not one market. >> It's one market, they have different dialects. People from the south, from the east, from the west, from the north, they're different cultures, different dialects, different consumer behaviors. And then if you look at the cities, they're called tier 1 and tier 1.5 and tier 2 and tier 3 and tier 4 cities and they all have different things, so you cannot assume it's one big market. Yes, the written language is the same, the law is very similar, but they all have local regulatory things. Some of them are more beneficial, some of them maybe more conservative, so my advice is that, get to know your local market first, okay? But another thing which is in contrast with this, is even though it's many big markets, if you want to learn something, you want to be quick. Because chances are, it's not so much about IP infringement, there's nothing that's un-copyable. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So if your business model is good and you're successful in Shanghai you haven't launched it in [INAUDIBLE] chances are six months later someone is going to do it in [INAUDIBLE]. >> Yeah, especially a business model is not something you can patent anyway. >> It's very hard, right? So what you need to do is the speed to market. You need to plan ahead, get enough cash. That's why, if you look at some of these views in China for this serious aid use can get as much as 100 million or because you need that to actually say, I'm going to launch my product in 31 cities in six months. It's not like, I want to do this in Shanghai first and six months later, I'm going to go to Beijing and another six months later, I'm going to it doesn't work that way. So you have to be really quick, but they are different. They have to tailor a little bit. >> That is a kind of conflicting idea, right? >> Yes it is. >> At the same time, on the one hand you need to expand quickly but on the other hand these cities- >> They're not similar. They're not the same- >> And provinces are like a country of their own. >> Yes. >> So so that will be a very difficult case for- >> Well, it's a challenge both to you and any entrepreneurs local >> True, even the local office aren't the same. >> If you are a Shanghai entrepreneur and you want to go to Chongsheng. First of all, you don't understand the dialect. [LAUGH] Secondly, they have a different food. They also have a different consumer behavior. So, you estimate. >> Right. >> My philosophy is, I was very early. I'd have my first company in China in 1994. And I failed because I thought I was Hong Kongnese. I told to myself I was a local. >> Mm. >> You need to be local, in order to get the feel, eat the local food, meet the local people. >> Yeah. >> Try to get, it's very, it's sometimes bad when I see some of these habits of people who have this cultural superiority. Thinking, I'm from the civilized world and I'm coming here. Doesn't work that way. >> They need to ditch that mentality. >> You need to ditch that mentality. In order to stay out of the five star hotels. Go to the local people. And I understand why they buy, how they buy. And then, you can get on. >> Yeah, is this particularly true for, of course, consumer products? >> Exactly, yeah. >> So, what other advice would you give to, if someone coming from foreign places? >> Do pay attention to the policies. Because. >> Yeah. Go with the party. >> On one hand even if the policies are not hindering you, they might be helping your competitors. >> Right. >> So, you better take the same advantage, okay? Secondly, I think is just be local, try to be local. Take away your cultural privilege. >> because it's a very different market. >> It's a different market. And the third one is speed, speed is everything. >> Speed in China is very important. >> Today, I mean, maybe ten years later it was a different world. But today in China, everything, because so many people are entering this startup market. So, many people are trying to do something, okay? And there's an abundant of funding. There is a very warm welcoming culture, both from the government, the media and the education center on start up. >> Yeah. >> So, if you're not moving fast, chances are somebody else will take advantage of that. >> Right. What's the selection criteria for entering the accelerated program in Shanghai? What do people look for? >> Officially, there's a scoring machine, that basically what you need to do is first of all you have to be sustainable and skillable. I think these are the two main areas that we see. But my requirement to my, we have a judging committee. I'm the chairman, but there are a few others who are experienced investors, and my, when I said okay, well yes do fill in the marks, because it's a government program. But, what I want from you, I said, is that if you need to take half a million Hong Kong dollars or half a million Yuan D and invest in this company of your own money, not of government money, not a fund. >> So, you want the entrepreneur to be committed. >> Are you >> No, not the entrepreneur, the judging panel- >> The judging panel. >> The judging panel. I asked the panel judges I said. If you were to take half a million dollars and you like this company, will yo do it? >> Your own money. >> That's the ultimate test. >> That's the ultimate test. >> If you invest your own money- >> Exactly, then I think we give them a chance. I mean, what we do is, we now change the program. Originally it was a one year, three, right now we change it to the six months. So, what we want to do is six month later, we're going to review the situation. So, we say, we will welcome you to come in, we'll give you a chance. We give you that the flexibility, but you need to prove yourself with the very short period of time, but I think all start ups are like that. If you're not successful in the first two years, chances are you're never going to fly. >> Did the six month limit or sometimes I see even three months, right? >> Yes. >> Overseas program, a lot of successful one. >> Five hundred startups, yeah. >> They are three months, six month, very brutal, in fact. It is very brutal but I was originally wondering why but then I understand is that, unfortunately the world is brutal. >> Yes. >> It is why it's called a standard interest where they want you to work fast and they want you to work hard, they want you. Because, even if in six months time you're still haven't figure out, how to get your first revenue, how to put a market, then maybe something is wrong. >> Yeah. >> Or maybe somebody else is already working on an idea similar to you. >> Yes. >> And then if you launch, the worst thing that could happen to a startup or investor is where you're beta testing somebody launched a similar product. >> Yes. >> So, I mean that is something we wanted. >> And if they do well after six months do they get a renewal or? >> We do allow them to renew but most of the time they won't. because if they're successful they're going to get their first funding, they get an enjoy round or sit around. And then, they want to move to a more decent offices instead of sharing with- >> So, in other words, if it becomes succesful, you want them to graduate. >> They graduate, but they were still probably maintain a name in our center. Well, if it were really the long-term way of, I don't know, creating carpool or something. But Right now what will happen is they still say,oh I'm one of the incubatees but the reality is the, I mean, one of our incubatees is already expanding to Shanghai. >> Excellent. >> because he's telling me, he said well I mean, sorry to tell you but I'll probably keep my RND but my biggest market is in Shanghai. So, I'm going to move my headquarter there. Which is actually great they are expanding. >> Good and bad that means we don't collect taxes from them. >> I see. >> But a good thing is yeah I want them to succeed, right? But he said I sill want to maintain the link because I want to see if there's any other new ideas. I'm proud of being of one of the graduate. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, I think we try to maintain this good balance and also we invite these people to come back and share with the others. How, what makes you successful? >> Yes. >> And that is, I think- >> Still a good success story. >> It is, it is. >> And how closely do you work with the investors? >> Reasonably. Personally, I do because I'm one of the investor circle people so I kind of know what we do is we create, for exampl,e recently we have a competition. What we call Shenzhen Hong Kong Youth Startup Competition. So, what happened is I invite all my judges are basically masters, okay? >> Yes, yes. >> So, they will do the judging, they help me to select the winner, but at same time they gotta chance to see these people. And then, at the final judging day what we do is we'll invite people like IBG and those big fun houses. And so, we may have five guestures but we have 25 other investors sitting in the room. And then, you see the finalists present their ideas. I keep telling these people, I said, all you need to do is make it to the finals because you don't have to be number one to get an investment. Chances are, if you're number six, but you'd kind of, because every investor have their own prepare, right? So, if you kind of suit a certain investors interest, you might get an investment. >> Yeah. >> So, you don't have to be a number one. >> Yeah. >> Unlike in school exam you want to be a number one but here, yes a number one you get a card A, you got a certificate, I mean you got some price money >> But even if you're number nine, as long as you make it to the final. You got a chance of sending to all these 30 very famous investors who took out a large piece of their precious time sit there and listen to you, okay? So, I think what we do is we honor this kind of events. Sometimes, these are competitions. Sometimes there's presentaion days. Sometimes, a chairman session Sometimes what we call roadshow, so we get to have both of these start ups. >> So they can demonstrate their- >> They can demonstrate their product, they can demonstrate the ideas. And then we invite your masters to come and look at them. >> So it's a good way to connect the entrepreneurs with the- >> Well, you have to, you have to. I hear this, that's the only way. It's no, there's really not much help for the entrepreneurs of, you, all, if all you're providing is a free rental space. >> Yeah. >> Because, I mean, you can always find it, you can't find a garage, but you can always find a. >> Yeah. >> Coffee shop table. >> Yeah. >> So really money wise it doesn't cost them that much for a start up to either get a small space. But they'll get a chance of mingling with other stars, mingling with investors, connecting you with what's happening in the market. For example, sometimes we have speakers that come and talk about the market, what's going on what's going on in IoT, what's going on this, and that we hope is, what area we can stimulate thoughts to the startups so they can think about it. >> So it's the synergy of intending to create a entrepreneur? >> We call it the, it's a circle. It's an ecosystem System. >> Yes. >> Called the ecosystem. >> Ecosystem. >> So you have your investors at different stage all the way from >> Right. >> And then you have different start ups. >> Yeah. >> And then we human have some incubate in China's this is something which I think is really part well, it's positive and negative is >> Some of these large internet companies are also creating the- so they call it the ecosystem, ecochange they call it. >> Yeah. >> So what happen is for example Xiaomi, they have invested like 40/50 companies that they think these startups might either going to be complimentary to their products, >> Yes. >> Or is going to be destructive to them. Okay, the same with 10 cent, the same with Alibaba. >> So they will carve out a particular area that would be useful benefit? >> They have people, they actually trade funds and they specially, I mean one really good example is. Was not a 10 cent product 10 cents portable was called QQ, was called mobile QQ, which didn't work that well. >> Right. >> But they had invested in a small company in Wu angyo in right? They [INAUDIBLE] small company in Wu angyo, which had developed WeChat. And then they like it. Then they put a few investment on it and they acquired company and then the last was- >> It's a good combination. Their investor is strategic and they have the ability to make it fire. >> So I said the good thing is that means for a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of starters, you don't have to think about IPO >> And you do is you have a good product, you have a good market, you can have a trade sell with some of these big guys. The best things, of course, they come to everything. Some people would say, I don't want to sell it to 10 Cent, I want to go all the way to IPO. You may not have the chance. >> But the investor or the acquirer actually brings in a lot of Networking and expanding. >> And make it much easier for you to be successful. >> Yeah, it's a give and take. >> Yes. >> Any final words you would like to share? >> I think well first of all I think do not assume China is one single market, it's a long >> It's a, I don't want to say it's a strange country but it's not an ordinary country. You think about it, I mean, it's socialist but market economy. It has been left behind in some of the infrastructures but then it what also what we call- >> Leap frog- >> A leap frog, yeah >> Like for example mobile. >> Yes. >> Right? There are certain things that may not be up to stand or our stand for example the medical conditions. >> Yeah. >> Everyone of our local hospital and hours, it's you really don't want to be, I'm here But that is just the growth pain of a country who had gone from really nothing 35 years ago, to where it is today. So that you have to be accommodating. Yet at the same time, be able to grab the opportunities because of the high growth. Because the vast interest groups, various ones, are not that stringent, are not that strong yet. So there's a lot of chance for you to. And also, what I like about China is their regulatory policy. You might think, the Communist Party, they control everything. No, they're actually very, very liberal, if you compare them with, for example, the Hong Kong MA. Because what happened is, China had been going for this thing called reform and opening and what they call, this phrase called catch the stone to cross the river, so they are very receptive on the ideas of maybe working, walking in a gray area. Maybe, walking an area where there are no regulators. There are no regulatory framework and they were allow you to do certain things first, then they would try to accommodate to their new regulatory framework. >> So they're more receptive to unconventional >> Exactly and that is very positive compared if you look at some of this more >> Mature economy when everything is rigid. So, in China, dare to think, but ask around, read more, understand more. >> Correct, thank you very much for your sharing. >> Welcome. >> We learned a lot today. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, thanks.
