So today we have Amber Scales, who currently is delivering an excellent performance as Viola, >> Thank you. >> In Twelfth Night. >> Thanks for being here. >> Thanks for having me. >> So can you talk a little bit about you as an actor, how you came to be here at CSF, I know this is your second season. >> Yeah. >> So let us hear just a little bit about your experience with, you know, as an actor, and also specifically with the plays of Shakespeare. >> Yeah, great. I was here last summer at CSF I was in Love's Labour's Lost as Catherine and then, I was in another production with crystal ball to win an Cyrano de Bergerac, which was really fun. Scott Cooper was great in that. But it kind of happened because Seth Panitch, who has directed here and it's the head of the acting department at the University of Alabama, I just graduated from in May. >> Congrats. >> Thank you. Is friends with Tim. So they let some of the Bama kids send in video auditions and don't throw them directly in the trash, which is nice, right? Someone take a look at them and he'll usually cast a couple of us each summer so there were four Bama interns last year. So we kind of paired alongside the two interns, which was nice to have some under 30s rounded not because you're ready folks to play servants or young teens, you walk around. >> For lovers. >> Yeah, exactly, for around that the lovers, that was fun. So David Deringer was here. >> Yeah. His surname. >> And then >> We're here together. >> Great. >> And the after cast, which was fun. >> Right. Now, is that school where you went? Is that affiliated with the Alabama Shakespeare Festival? >> No. So it's completely separate. Alabama Shakes is a little bit further south. We're in Tuscaloosa. >> Got it. >> But a lot of our students will be there in the summertime. So we do a Shakespeare play, probably every other year on campus. And then it's heavily taught and our coursework with set as well. So I've been in Hamlet on campus Peter Quincy before. And I've always really loved the texts and like the life of classical works, and specifically Shakespeare, so it was really excited. When they announced the season. >> Yeah. >> And I saw it was an option. I was like, female lead >> Yeah. >> By those great character. So it was nice to get that. >> Yeah >> And they would be here and playing that role having great time. >> Well you're killing it. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. So how's it been? >> You know, I think- >> Because as you say, it's a pretty iconic. >> It is and it kind of, it starts really heavy with her being like, okay my brother's dead. I'll die if I don't figure out something to do. Let's be a boy. >> Yeah. >> We talked a lot when we were doing table work about if the play continued like if Sebastian hadn't shown up would she have just been. Cesario forever, like there's really you don't really see get to see her plan there. Right, you don't, we were actually having that conversation. It was one of the things I wanted to talk about. So I'm glad you brought it up, in other Shakespeare plays you have like Rosalind saying, well, we might be in danger if it's, you know, two maids in the woods and so we have to dress up. But Viola, just [CROSSTALK]. That's great, but I hadn't taken it as far as like, but if the play continued. >> Yeah, well, that was my first thought, like how far she willing to ride through this, because she doesn't want to live as a man like it's something she's doing out of necessity for safety, even though she doesn't say this as explicitly as a lot of the other characters. >> But you think that's what it is? Yeah, because I mean the other characters like going there like traveling but you go straight to the- >> I think she's thinking I'm in a foreign country, I'm a young unmarried woman. So historically I can't have money. >> Yeah. >> I have no male escort, like there's no kind of boy yet, if you're thinking of slavery is to at least like, I'm here and I'm a woman, but this is the person who you can speak to on my behalf and who can correct for me and give messages. I mean, in her mind, she has no family. >> Right. >> She doesn't really know where she is. That's another thing we explored, like how far is Illyria- >> From home. >> From home, which close enough that they were on a boat journey there, but people were on boats or these mountains back then so maybe not close it. >> All right. >> So all those factors kind of in my mind, I was like, okay, I think that her essence, this is about I need to be able to have some money in my pocket, and I need to be in a less vulnerable position and then young unmarried woman is not any of those things so boy, what was fascinating to me is how she saw some of her own problems with being like tell them I'm a unique so that'll cover when my voice is a little bit higher like maybe while I'm slightly more feminine than a lot of other men. >> Yes. >> Kind of went through and already was like, yeah, don't go looking for me to like pee in the woods. >> Right. >> Which is brilliant on her behalf. >> Yes. >> It was one of the more daunting things about her. She's so smart and happens so quickly. >> Mm hmm. >> But her getting swept up in this kind of love with Orsino almost as against her nature. >> That's great. So talk more. So why do you think you keep the costume I mean once you're there and like. >> You're not in danger anymore. >> Once she knows they're friendly people, >> Right? >> Yeah >> You stay in costume. >> Well it takes, you know the first time you see her in male garb in the show. It's been three days, which, when you're in the realm of emotional trauma and processing. >> Yes. >> The death of your twin brother, like that's your brother, your twin brother, right? That's not long. >> Right? >> So no matter how taken all these strangers are with her, she's been in a mass probably pretty fully for those three days like, in my mind, she probably hasn't let her guard down. She's probably been very worried about getting found out? >> And you would look just like him. >> Right. >> I mean, I hadn't thought about that before, but that's- >> Yeah, which is funny because Dante and I really don't, but right in that theroy of like, he gives a whole monologue of like he she looked just like me, but many people thought she was very beautiful. So we definitely looks similar enough that no one would question it too much. Yeah. >> You know the classic to the long hair in a ponytail and boom, you're boy. >> Yes, exactly. >> I put a Shakespear. >> Put a hat on. >> Put a hat on, boom, so I get totally taken care of. >> Yeah, I know, definitely. >> Which is nice. >> Yeah. >> It's like put a vest on and some pants and you're, dude, great. >> Yeah. >> Makes it easier to play that I'd rather- >> Right, but what you are making me think about it's just this notion of being in mourning. >> Yeah. >> And there's something comforting maybe about wearing his clothes you know, like, I don't know, I hadn't really thought about that before. >> But yeah, yeah, just a little piece of them and I think having the setting being right by the sea. >> Yeah. >> And me thinking he's drowned and us being washed into this new life in a shipwreck. >> Yeah. >> I have so many moments in the show where I get to look at the sea. And just that thought of I'd be seeing some version of my reflection I'd be seeing where I thought he may be could be >> Yeah. >> You know adrift, because it's kind of magical that we made it. >> Yeah. >> The sea captain and myself who disappears. >> Yeah. >> So that's, you know, my only friend. >> Yes. >> He's gone until the. >> But. >> All of a sudden he's back, we won't talk about it. >> Where'd he go >> Yeah, I don't know >> [LAUGH] >> He's not being too helpful, clearly. >> Yeah. >> It's a really dire situation I think we've talked about a lot about those steaks and just emotionally, how she would had to just throw that grief aside for the sake of survival. >> Right. I mean and then she falls pretty hard pretty fast. >> Right. And we get the show over the course of three and a half months, which is Aeon's to Shakespeare, most women, you know, it takes them a good two hours and they're in love with someone. >> Right. >> Madison playing Juliet has like a night. >> Right. Yeah. >> And he's like, in love with another woman the hour before like he comes to your party looking for another woman. But I think with Viola she wasn't looking for love, which I think is one of my favorite things about the piece that she's not there for him. He just happens to be there. And I don't even think she really expected it at all. I think it's something when you're watching someone, be happy and like be in love. >> Yeah. >> How those just that joy is infectious. >> Yeah. >> And her watching Orsino. Pine after Viola could have been a really like [NOISE] when you're sitting at the bar and some guy walks over to you and is like my friend thinks, and you're like, are you serious? Are we 12? What's happening here? Your friend, which is me, I'm the one like, my friend, the dude, happens to like you, and she's like, yeah, I'm not into that, but you're kind of cute, which just entangles the whole thing. >> Yeah, love triangle. >> We have a lot of discussion about woman to woman, how it feels for me to watch her falling in love knowing I'm having the same feelings. And that sisterhood of usually that's the kind of girl chat you would have like, my God, this person is so cute. And I'm into them, and regardless of sexuality that that kind of camaraderie what is still existed in feminine circles and masculine circles. So for me to not have an outlet and then for Olivia to be going through the same grief of the death of her brother and to not have any one socially or intellectually, really, on her level to discuss it. That she also in not looking for love finds it but through intellect, I think, more than Viola really falling in love with the idea of love through Orsino's eyes. >> And is that what you think it is? What, because like- >> I think so, because he's not brilliant. >> Right. [LAUGH] I think she's way smarter than him. >> Yeah. >> But I think he feels really deeply, and he's really caring. He's a sweet guy. And sometimes we maybe don't give enough credit to just being nice, really being kind, and he really, really likes her no matter how empty he is at saying it. But his self awareness to be like, I know I don't have the words. You seem to be kind of smart could you do this for me, but in his deepest moments of caring that the things Viola finds to put words to those emotions that with aeration fertile tears with groans that thunder love, with sighs a fire like the way she describes what he's going through and loving her is really beautiful. >> Yeah, it's passion. >> Yeah, it is, and I don't know, I think it's definitely more than he's just Marco level of hot which helps. >> Yeah, right. I think it has to be something not necessarily like a love at first sight kind of thing for her, but that there's something in his yearning that's really beautiful. >> I mean, do you think, I mean, because you mentioned that so many of Shakespeare's characters fall in love immediately, and it's not really love, it's infatuation >> Yeah, which, yeah. >> Which is clearly something he's exploring, and I feel right around the time when he's writing these plays, I think it's all over as you like, too, just like falling in love with someone who's not necessarily good for you. >> Right? And the drop of a hat. >> Yeah. And the thrill of the chase thing, I was just talking to Jess who played Olivia, and she was sort of talking about, because we had this big conversation about all these people are interested in you, but you fall for the person who's mean to you, who challenges you. >> Yeah. >> Who's also really smart and really great with words, and she was talking about that a lot, but that notion of falling in love with someone or who isn't interested in you. >> Yeah, we see that unrequited everywhere in the piece. >> But that's, yeah. I mean, especially with us changing Antonio into Antonia. >> Yeah. >> So then having that now what used to be a homosexual relationship turned into a heteronormative one, and it's, again, a woman pining after a man who's not interested. >> Right. >> We see that mirrored in me and Olivia, and I think the reason the audience cannot be upset with me in that is that they know that woman to woman I'm trying really hard in my language to be like, no woman will ever have my heart except me, and I'm like giving her all these hints and she's just not feeling it, where it kind of hurts my heart when I watch Madison as Antonia go after Sebastian and he's like, no. >> Yeah, he's just not interested. >> And I think in present circumstances, our audience would be just as hurt to watch that unrequited love in male to male, especially knowing- >> Sebastian and Antonio. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But it's sad. It's really sad to watch, especially when it's someone brave and who cares about you. I mean, Antonio saved my life thinking I'm Sebastian. That's someone who, for a lot of people, to be talking in the play, is about action, and he's ready to really put that to the test and takes her pocketbook off and gives him her purse and is ready for him to spend her money and just really is prepared to fully care for someone in the way of them being lost and meaning that. And for it to be so coldly returned. >> I know, it was just I'm not into, yeah, right. >> It's tragic to me, tragic, and they laugh every night. >> But it is sort of consistent because he's like, I mean, again, it's like these, we don't love the people who love us back. That's too easy. >> Right. >> It's the thrill of the chase, >> Which I think is Orsino's thing. I mean, consistently this woman is like, I am not interested. Which if you really watch, you're like this is creepy. >> Yeah, so he's, yeah. >> So everyday you're pining after her, and then all of a sudden [LAUGH] I accept your marriage proposal,. >> Right. Weird, a little bit weird. Just one of those Shakespeare things you have to kind of shake off, because if you really think too hard about it, you're like, that's really messed up. She said no a lot, and you are in a position of power over her. You're the Duke of this town. She doesn't really have an option, to say no is about all she has until you decide you want do something different. >> Right. >> And then he's ready to murder me just to spite her? We glossed over some kind of really emotional, how deeply he's invested. >> And is that something that you became really aware of in working on this play? >> Yeah, I think so. I think a lot of that language and just reading it, it was easy to focus on. Female lead, that's fun, that's nice. >> Yeah. >> Even with her being disguised as a man for the whole piece, but you don't realize that really a lot of the power in the piece still is with the men. When you're watching Maria and the clowns, even though she mentally and intellectually is the orchestrator of the whole joke against Malvolio. And is also the first person to say this is going a little bit far maybe we should stop. The men are the people who continuously egg it on and say no, let's take this all the way, and then her reward, again, is marriage. Congratulations, you did a good job, here's a husband. [LAUGH] >> Interesting, yeah. >> But when it's a comedy, you can't necessarily play those choices no matter how they personally feel when you're like, wait, wait a second, when you're actually in the text and in the room and hearing it for the first time, because hearing Marco say he was going to kill me for the first time, I was like, I'm sorry. What are the props here, is this knife to my throat? What are we doing? And Tim was like, no, no, no. And I was like, are we sure though? >> Because he says- >> Because he's very clearly saying he will murder me, and me and Jess were on the same page with that. We were like, yeah, I'm like terrified for your life, 100%. Mark was like, I don't know if I'd kill you, so we had this whole conversation about that. >> Yeah >> But it's taken to such extremes in all cases across the board. >> Yeah, things keep escalating. Right? >> Yeah. >> And it's kind of, all happens in, probably really once we start getting confused and we throw marriages into it and death is thrown into it and people start getting hurt and then all of a sudden everyone's a little bit more upset. >> Yeah. >> Which really makes them start asking questions. I mean, the longest amount of time Orcino acts as the Duke and is inquiring after things. Okay, what happened and tell me about it? And where are the witnesses? Is only when he thinks I'm entangled in mess, which is endearing, but it's kind of the only time you see him really turned to be a caretaker for me. >> Interesting. >> Where I've been playing that role for him for most of the show. >> Right? So talk to me about the moment when Feste is playing his song. And talk about the choices that were made in this production. I think it's awesome. >> It's both. [LAUGH] >> One my favorite parts of the play, of this production. Can you talk about it a bit? Because I feel like that domino has fallen prior to Because I think it's really interesting to wonder how that interaction influences his behavior towards you for the rest of the play. >> Right. So, I mean, at the three day mark, my first scene and we get basically Valentine letting us know Orsino is taken with me. >> Yeah. >> Our next scene together, he's talking about a party we had and some music he heard that he thought relieved his passion. >> Yeah. >> So we sit down on this, basically a beach blanket. We're sitting on the base of the stage. So now to the audience it's kind of that awkward like first date moment. And Rendy has composed beautiful music for the shows. >> Yeah, totally. >> So he's behind us playing, I think it's one of the mandolins, one of the bowl mandolins, and playing this really heartbreaking song. >> Yeah, >> We're not really listening to the lyrics, but if you do it's really sad. >> Yeah. >> But I think something about that, in my mind, the first time I sat and really listened to Rendy sing it, and heard him say come away death and end sad Cypress let me be laid. I think in my version of violet, it was an opportunity for me to let the sadness of my brother and being here alone kind of die away and have this moment with this man who I'm very fond of. >> Yeah. >> And I think there's something electric about when two people are a certain distance away. >> Right. >> At a certain point we were this close, we're either going to beat each other up or we're kissing. >> Yeah, right. >> We can't just be in this proximity and not have anything happen, because humans really aren't used to that. So we're sitting there and there's this tension between us, and it's kind of his hands on the blanket, my hands on the blanket >> As you're listening to this song. >> As we're listen to this beautiful music and by this point, the sun's settings, so, I mean, it's gorgeous. It really is beautiful. And I think it's so human, and the audience is watching us both be like, is he going to recoil from my touch? Are they going to like me? Can I try this, is this too much? And that moment of us seeing what we can do with each other and almost ending in that kiss is lovely. >> Yes. >> Until we realize we're not alone, and that there are all these people here. >> Will come running in. >> Right, watching this happen. Tim, happy idea to have, what is? My gosh, Curio. I was like what is wrong with me? >> Yeah. >> So Valentine and Curio back there, Feste's playing, and they have Curio clap at the end of the song and not really be looking at us but for the clap to interrupt our kiss. >> Right. And kind of that thought that when you're falling for someone, it's sometimes it's just you two and you're the only people on the planet. And isn't that lovely? But when it's your job to protect your identity, do you have the luxury of forgetting who you are like that?. And I think for violet, it was a sad realization of, I can't be this comfortable. Everyone else can have this beautiful moment. But I kind of spend the rest of the scene really worried about what does this mean? >> Well, that's one of the things I liked about it so much, is you really let that inform the remainder of the scene. >> Yeah. >> Because you were about to kiss. >> Right. I mean, we're nose to nose. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's to know not only did it happen, because of that interruption. >> Right. >> And I think, I mean, she doesn't have eyes in the back of her head. She doesn't know what they saw. She doesn't know if they were listening, but certain characters in this show are known for gossiping. >> Right. >> How is this going to get around? Who's going to start asking questions? Because I think she has a similar moment with Olivia after willow cabin, where Olivia is like what's your parents do? You speak really well, and her first thought is not, she wants to know if I'm a noble birth. My god, what does she know? What am I giving away? >> Yeah. >> What is too much? And I think a lot of, there's miscommunication in her thinking people might be seeing a little bit deeper into her than they are, but it reminding her that she can't be as much herself as she wants to be no matter how much she likes these people or how comfortable she is. >> So segueing into just this idea of identity, explored throughout the play. >> Yeah. >> What does it mean that he was about to kiss you when you weren't you? I had a lot of conversations with Marco about that, because I was like, we're watching Milan like this is a cute love story, but it's also Shang maybe being bisexual this whole movie and we never talked about that, that Shang was into Ping. You were two men, you were sitting there. >> Yeah >> You were falling in love on the mountain fighting the Huns and everyone was cool, but it's a Disney movie, so we had to be like, by the way, she's a girl and we're never going to talk about the fact that you were kind of in love with a boy. >> Yeah. >> And we had a funny moment where one night it was raining, and I fell on stage and Marco couldn't see my face. So he was kind of trying to figure out if I was okay to keep going with the scene, and in Shakespeare, it's hard to really make up text to speak to one another, because it's in iambic. So he was like, forget it. I'm just going to say some things, but what came out of his mouth in that moment of wondering if I was okay, me is Amber who he knows but also Orsino, [LAUGH] just as Cesario was, are you all right, my love? >> Yes. >> Which we laughed about afterwards, because it is that kind of Freudian slip for Orsino who is sitting there not having no knowledge, because I don't think Orsino's smart enough to have an inkling. I think Festio 100% knows I'm a girl. He makes a whole bunch of comments about- >> Well, and he takes that speech to you in this production. >> Right. >> Which I think is really cool. >> Yeah, and I think we have a couple of moments, Rendy and I, where he's like, who you are and what's your well or out of my welcome [LAUGH] and just walks away. I'm like, Feste I'm not playing with you, but you're not about to blow my cover in front of these people just because you're smart and playing the fool. >> Yeah. >> Which I think we we have an understanding, Feste and I, of each other's intellect, but yeah, we didn't really explore what exactly that meant for Orsino, and I mean, we don't have to. At the end of the show he gets to marry me as a woman and see me in my woman's weeds, and it's all kind of wrapped up in a bow, but I think in a modern production, Orsino's at least bisexual. I think we don't really get to understand Olivia's sexuality much. She appears to be pretty heteronormative in the way she pines after men, but we switched a homosexual relationship and then Viola is assumed to be heterosexual as well, but I mean, even just thinking about how to play gender as a sis woman playing this male role, and we've examine that a lot this season of what does it mean to be masculine or feminine, and we've gender bent a lot of roles, and then indoor we have a woman disguised as a man as well. So that's kind of been a theme throughout the season. >> Right. >> But I think it's less what it actually means in us and what society perceives as gender or as something that's traditionally feminine or traditionally masculine. But those those moments, it's just me and Marco as people sitting on a blanket. You kind of can forget that, because it's that human connection. >> Yeah. >> And the audience can choose, I mean, it's funny sometimes you hear laughs in that scene, sometimes it's [NOISE] and people are really just reliving something they have done, but you get a lot of really wide variety of reaction to it. >> [LAUGH] Yes. >> And I don't know if it would necessarily matter if Orsino was a woman, or if we kept Antonio as Antonio. I think you could switch a lot of the characters, and the through line really would stay the same as long as Viola came in and said, I have to do something for safety. >> Yeah. >> Because I think that that's really the only reason she picks living as a man. I think she could pick a lot of things in that capacity, but that's really the only way gender affects her there, and then of course that she has a male twin so there's kind of that identity of not only am I playing a man, I really have a man to model after. Now I think because Donte's Sebastian is very comical, and I think as twins are probably different in that way I chose not to really make my Cesario a lot like his Sebastian. >> Right. >> But I've seen it done that way where they are really just like two people who are pretty much the same. >> Yeah. >> But I thought there was something to be said about us being twins and having that twin connection and that love for each other, but being really individual people. >> Right, because no one knows who Sebastian is on the islands, >> Right. >> And so like you have to, I mean, you're pretending to be Cesario. >> Yeah, and I think it makes the moments of people finding him and him not responding as I would make more sense, because if we're that much the same, it kind of could have, maybe got a little bit better when he finds him. Maybe he would have not beat up Sir Andrew, whatever. >> Right. I'm thinking about that speech, and this is kind of going back to what you were saying where you genuinely feel bad for Olivia. >> Yeah. >> That disguise there are our wickedness speech. Can you talk a bit about that in terms of the discoveries that Viola makes being someone other than who she is? >> Yeah, so the rings speech was one that kind of scared me. >> Sure- >> I mean- >> It's like- >> A lot of people know it and it's [LAUGH] yourself. These are people who love Shakespeare and have been coming for years and years. So they're the first people in the talkback to be like, I remember when so and so I was playing this role and I love that piece and you did this. >> Like comes around like every six or seven years. >> Yeah, so it's a lot of people who have seen it before or seen it somewhere else or seen the movie of it, and different versions. So I was like okay, let's just take this piece step by step of like what is really happening here. And it's a piece of discovery. It's her figuring out what in the world is going on here? But when she gets to the point where she doesn't blame it on herself, she doesn't say, Viola, you are wickedness or this is a wickedness, disguised as in the clothes, the fact that she is being deceptive. And I think, for me going back to her having to wear this mask and how she interacts with people, and not being able to be herself even in situations where she would want to. Because she's scared of people figuring her out, that it takes a toll on you to lie, to actively lie to people around you. For whatever reason, good or bad. And I think we all have missions in our day to day, but it's a pretty big one. >> Yeah. >> To have everyday purposefully. Even the process of her getting out of bed and having to put these clothes on. And so she like she put herself in this falsity, I think it really was a moment for her to be like, there is an enemy waiting to work in this. It took me a minute, I'm still not, some nights I feel that resonate and some nights I think it kind of glows, but wherein the pregnant enemy does much. And then her next thought is how easy is it for the proper false in women's whacks and hearts to set their forms? Alas, a frailty is the cause, not we, for such as we are made, if such we'd be. So we think about the piece of her being, heroine and being very strong and very feminist or womanist, but she's like, nah, I mean, we're women. It's not really our fault, but it's easy for us to love things. And when I thought about that, it took me a while to be like, okay, what did she really mean by that? And I think in a present-day modern context of how women are socialized, I took a super interesting class. Was the first semester of my senior year, The Feminine Experience, a Moral Obligation, it was all about how women are socialized in moral theory. So truly, in America, the feminine and masculine perception of what is right and what is wrong is different because of how society reinforms our own perception of good and bad. And to me that's really what she was talking about, that as a woman, and as that idea of her being soft and caring and loving that this kind of active deception. Is she didn't I don't think she has a problem with her intellect. I think she has a problem with the lying that she was hurting not only herself but was hurting another woman in the process. >> Yeah. >> And isn't that tragic? And it's another one thing that to me is so sad but in how upset she is out of it, and we get a laugh about it every night. The poor lady, you would better love a dream. And everyone thinks it's the funniest thing in the world, but I'm serious! >> Every night. >> She would better love a fantasy than me. It would be easier because it's just not, I just know it's not going to happen. >> Yeah. >> And it's like the more I know it's not going to happen the harder Olivia tries to be like, well can we get tomorrow? Like, let's see, no. And because they're seen as just the same way with we're never going to stop. There I am, going back every day, >> Right. >> Which what a toll to be told by the guy you like to go talk to this woman who you know likes you. >> Right. >> And doesn't like him, and she finally breaks and it's like, okay, well, what if she can't love you? Well, what are we going to do then? And then his whole retort is, well, women aren't really capable of love. So that's really not even an option. >> And this is all on the heels of that moment that we're talking about. >> Right, the comedic moment. >> Yeah. >> It's almost kissing. >> Yeah. And I'm a very, [CROSSTALK] >> I love how you use that because it's like you were about to kiss me, so- >> Really? >> Let's talk about a life after Olivia, please. >> Right, and I'm like maybe we can move past this. And I mean, that's a really human thing, okay, you were grieving the loss of this, or you dated that other person, but you're over that now, right? You're like, no, well, not really. Sorry. >> Well and so, I've been wanting to find a way to, because I love that As You Like It is in the same season. >> Mm-hm. >> Because I think there are lots of parallels. >> That's fun isn't it? >> And the notion that Rosalind sort of, because this question of why'd you keep the costume on, in As You Like It, Rosalind needs to know, because Orlando when they meet each other Orlando is tongue-tied and- >> Right. >> Rosalind seems to stay in costume until she's ready to reveal herself because she's tried to talk him out of being in love. And so that there's trust or something that happens at the end of the play that she doesn't have at this earlier. Otherwise the play would be half as long and she would be like, look, it's actually me, Rosalind, that she would take the costume off, and they would be together. >> Right. >> So there's something that Orlando has to sort of earn. >> Yeah, the learning he has to do. >> Yeah, do you think there's a parallel there? I mean, again, what is it that causes you? I mean, I guess you don't really choose that. Sebastian walks in, and- >> And, and that's the part that I kind of hate about it. I mean the whole show you thinking, I have this lead, I get to play this heroine how exciting, but the crux of the show is still on her brother. If he hadn't wandered onto the beach- >> Yeah. >> No one would have ever, which is why I thought if Sebastian never showed up what how does the play end? >> Right. >> What happens? >> Right? >> And I think not sad version, eventually Orsino gets fed up and either forces Olivia to marry him, or Olivia says I can't do this anymore. Someone has to move away or something final has to happen, or someone's upset or someone's being forced into something. But for my brother to show up and marry her. >> Yeah. >> And then for her to see me and be like, why are you here? We had a deal, you don't keep promise with me and maybe like, what are you even talking about right now? >> Right. >> And for Orsino to only be upset with me because he wants her for himself. But then the flip that- >> And then at the end- >> Immediately. >> And at the end he's like, well okay, so then I'll marry you. >> So great, so I'll think of you more as a sister. It'll be better for the kingdom and I'll take you. >> Right, right. >> Which doesn't quite sound like love when ten minutes ago, you were ready to kill me to spite her. >> Right. >> But I mean, you never see them get married. I kind of accept his hand and- >> But here is where he kills Cesario, right? >> Which for me doesn't feel that different. Right. >> And I think it's really interesting to watch everyone else be able to separate that, but I never do anything to unbecome Cesario. >> Right. >> I don't take the jacket off. I don't pull my hair down. He calls me Cesario again at the end of the play accidentally. >> Right. >> Shall we know why you are a men like in his mind, this person he loves him Cesario synonymous, which goes back to every game like what's happening here. But in terms of him learning something, I don't think she gets that luxury, and a lot of times in the comedies the women are there to teach the men a lesson. Like Emma has a lovely moment with Robert, where, as Mariah and Toby, Toby like pours out his flask and he learns something, he betters himself as a man, to like, earn her. And I don't really get a moment like that. >> Right. >> In fact, I get called by my main name, I don't even know. I mean, I say Viola's name I said once in the whole show. So really, if he wasn't listening, he doesn't even know my name. Which I hope he knows. >> Yeah >> But you know, in theory I'm really not sure how much he actually knows about me. >> Yeah >> Because this person I've been being is parts of Viola but not really fully herself. It's an odd sort of. >> Yeah. >> Wrap up. >> Yeah. >> And I mean, he tells me we're getting married [INAUDIBLE]. >> Yeah. >> Really wasn't a question [LAUGH]. >> So, but how does it land on you? I mean. >> I think in the moment that way we play, it is ever as an actor thinks it's lovely and beautiful. How nice I get what I want. But I think that in a version of the show where even in this timeline it keeps going, but Viola has some questions. >> Yeah. >> Like, okay, let's slow down for a second before we like, we're not having this wedding tomorrow. >> Right. >> Because you don't know who I am. But, I mean as a person, and like as a person who enjoys intellect in two people in emotional relationships, was disappointed by it. >> Well, one of the things I liked so much about that moment in the play during [INAUDIBLE] song that I keep going back to, is like I do feel like there's a genuine connection. >> Right. [CROSSTALK] >> Yeah, but there's a, but that thing happened. >> Yeah. >> I mean, again it comes down to like, true self verse like when are we performing and when are we really ourselves. >> Right. >> But that moment feels so real. You know? >> And I think it is, I think it is for the both of them. I think there's something in both of their souls that recognizes one another. But for him to so immediately push it away. I think that really does crush her. >> Right. >> And- >> But he, does he pushed it away because of, you know, is it a gender issue? Is that a fear? >> Yeah, I mean it could be but you think, I think again in Viola's thought process of this, it's, you're in charge here. You're the Duke of this town. There's no one to really try you. If you decided >> Right. >> Maybe we couldn't get married as Cesario and Orsino but if you decided in whatever way you were going to continue your favors and like me or whatever, you could, cause he will check you. You're the top dog here. >> Yeah. >> So I think in her mind, she's like you, I mean, you're all powerful. You're man, you're a Duke. You have property of land. You're in charge of all these people. You walk in and demand things. And the first thing you did when you thought that towards me was push it aside and say okay, so that girl, which is heartbreaking, but I think for her, it's amplified by him than saying, and this is the way I don't think women are even capable of having the type of love I'm having, which for Viola, she's like, are you joke right now? >> Right. >> I'm smarter than you, like what are you talking about? And that sort of thing. I don't think it really changes how she feels. I think she still is drawn to him. And there's still a connection there. That's really real. >> Yeah. >> But it definitely makes it harder the rest of the show for her to continue this back and forth and then for really the next time she sees them, for him to be trying to kill her. >> Right. >> The timelines with, we spend a lot of time seeing Viola and Olivia and I wish we had some more scenes with Orsino. >> Right. >> To kind of fill out what's happening with them behind closed doors? Because I think they're having, lovely conversations over meals and in his home and there's a lot of things that we don't see and a lot of language that we're not told about even if it happens on stage that no one ever comes in and like, lets us know what happened. >> Like? >> To fill out. Okay, well, why are you so drawn to him and why is he drawn to you and how does this continue growing when he's still having you court this other woman for him? >> Right. >> Yeah, there's a lot of layers. [LAUGH] >> I mean, it is kind of another example of loving someone who doesn't love you back and there's a thrill of the chase thing there. I hadn't really thought about that. But- >> Yeah, I don't know if, I kind of thought about it. I don't know she's really chasing after him after that, right? I think she's kind of resigned herself to this is her reality. He likes her. This is the role I play in his life. He likes me. I know he likes me. I know, you know, he's always going to take care of me. I'll always have a space in his court like those sort of things, but I think she kind of thinks. Our almost kiss was as close as we'll ever get, and almost isn't enough, which is so sad. >> Yeah, it is. >> And you don't really see her sad for the rest of the show. And I don't think she's going to like sulk around the island. >> Right. >> For the rest of her life because, again, she has no idea how she's getting out of the situation. >> Right. >> We're like getting money little by little but not enough to get- >> Right. >> A boat ride home and then again, I'd still have to go as a boy, which means the Duke would still have to let me go and in terms of power and her ability to really change her circumstances, there's not a lot. So all she has is. How she's going to speak to people and in her own perception and her own identity, how is she going to relate to the world? And when that is basically being influenced to say, well, no, you have to be a boy. She has very little to herself, like for herself that she has to keep. >> That's good stuff. >> I thought a lot about it, I feel like, this is- >> Yeah, well, that's what's so fun about talking to actors who are really, really, you know, because you can think about the play holistically, but each of you. >> Has a own. Yeah. >> Really thought about that tracks of the show. >> Right. >> So the kind of discoveries that you've made him, yeah. Are they helpful? Is there another like favorite moment in the play that we haven't touched on? >> I do really love Willow Cabot and that might just be me loving the language of it. But I think there's something to be said about the same moment I had with our scene on the blanket is the moment Olivia has when I say that speech of her being like, wow. >> Yeah. >> And I think we had. To have a conversation about how okay how are we going to do this where we can watch Olivia fall in love? >> Yes. >> And you know someone who has been consistently, you know Olivia has no fall, you know the characters the way I mean she comes out in this black morning gown. >> Yes. >> And is very clear with everyone that she's just not here for fun. She's not here for games. >> Yes. >> She is like running the like work she has to do that her brother and father left but that's about it. Very much like level of like, there are some things that can be done now and some that have to be done later and like we're not here for joy right now. >> Yeah. >> But, for her to so, holistically shift. >> Yeah. >> And then, for us to see her you know, like picking up seashells and like just doing all this cutesy stuff and eventually out and a new dress after the wedding. >> Yeah. >> And the joy that she gets on that and she shifts into a whole new person. For that to all come from her hearing me. To say that I would sit outside your house and sing your songs loud at night and yell your name off the mountains and let it echo through the air. Stuff that is beautiful. And I mean, who wouldn't want someone to love them like that? To be that bold. But I think really for Viola was a moment of being like she wanted to be able to be herself. And that kind of boldness and openness is something she was missing. So she's talking about stuff she would want, but also stuff she would do Orsino. And it's that same way Viola kind of falls into Orsino watching someone love someone. It's so endearing. >> And then becoming a different version of yourself. >> Of yourself for them. >> Yeah. >> because she turns into a whole new person. A person I really don't know how to interact with, who is dragging me on stage. And is all cutesy and I'm like, what is this? >> Who are you? >> Just coming here? I'd say, Orsino likes you, you'd say his words are heresy, I don't want to hear it, and you'd send me on my way. And all of a sudden I'm getting gifts, your servants are bringing me rings, and you're calling me in to do menial tasks for you and doesn't even know my name, which is so interesting. When she finally asked, what's your name? >> By the way. [LAUGH] >> And I'm like, Cesario. Which I always like, can we cut this? Are we really going to be like she didn't know my name? Just funny stuff that Shakespeare throws in there. No one really knows who you are. But it reaffirms that idea of no one ever had to ask, they thought Cesario slash Viola as a person was so clear and made so much sense. >> With something so that they could attach to and she is so in inner turmoil being these fake people and for whatever reason. But is so not herself, but no one knows that. And I think people do that every day and walk around and I thought a lot about what I do to exist in spaces where you have to code switch or you just alter the way you are because it's survival. It's almost instinctual. >> And you think it's still you, just a different version of you? >> I think so. I think like there's a lot of people especially growing up like deep south, there's a lot of ways that Amber has to exist that I learned without even knowing I learned it. And one day, someone pointed out to me, was like, you don't do that, you don't whisper, you're not a quiet person. I'm like, [LAUGH] I'm not at all. So I wonder what about this environment immediately told me, this is how you need to change the way you're perceived so you can navigate through these spaces effectively. And she does that. And it kind of happens without thinking. You walk into a library, you know to start whispering. You go into a crowded restaurant and you're more aware of your body so you don't have to bump into people. >> kind of the way we all are at airports or places where there's a lot happening, and you're like, let me just shrink myself a little so I can exist here among these people and not make any waves. But I started [LAUGH] doing really funny things to kind of break out of that. [LAUGH] And it kills Dante, we'll be someplace and I'll just yell in public and he's like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I don't know, just needed the moment. >> [LAUGH] >> Sshouldn't we all take them? Shouldn't we all just exist as we are, take up space, Viola would kill for those moments. So I think as an actor now I'm so much more aware of them day to day, especially when they're related to gender. >> Yeah, that's a really good segueway into the last question that I've been asking in these conversations, which is why this play today? I mean, I feel like you've kind of just answered this. >> Yeah. >> But do you have more to say about why? Why this play, this production? Because it's resonating with audiences. >> I think we're in a really interesting national space to discuss gender and identity. And just as more and more people have decided that, gender is a social construct, sure, but it's one that is deeply prevailed in our society. So let's figure out a way to educate folks around it, to talk about it, to be gender inclusive in our language, to start putting our pronouns in our email signatures. And saying those sort of things, especially in artistic spaces where non-binary people are more and more talking about, well, what roles are we going to play and how are we going to be represented in? Does it really matter if this person is strictly male or strictly female? And how does that kind of exist? And then there are further conversations happening about like, well, what does it mean to be a woman and have autonomy and to have control of yourself and control of your future and your body? And all those things happening where Viola has to make choices strictly based on survival that aren't the choices she would make in her every day. And I think that thought of we will do things to survive that we wouldn't do in perfect circumstances, or in even decent circumstances, is something that always resonates. Because people are always pushed in situations where they're forced to be someone other than their true self. Or think that someone's not going to accept them for who they are. And that idea of what does it mean to be accepted and to be safe in a culture and in a society. >> Rather than having to perform. >> Right, rather than performative emotions or performative anything. I mean, because I think Viola performs male gender as best she can when she doesn't really quite know how to do that because why would she, that's not her identity. But those ways we examine kind of the Laurence Dunbar thought of, who wears the mask and who is forced to and who never has to? It's like Orsino never has to put a mask on really once in the whole show, so- >> Because of his status. >> Because of his status and his power, and there are so many people in our current world who always are wearing masks because of their station or their race or their ethnicity or their poverty or their sexuality or whatever. That literally have to exist as other beings, just to make it through the day and some people who have never understood the privilege it is to literally be themselves. And that sort of conversation is something that resonates, I think through all ages and through all audiences. It's pretty timeless. >> And that this exploration was happening in the form of this play four hundred and fifty years ago, it's pretty remarkable. >> Right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, good stuff. >> Yeah, it's great to work on. It's a joy every night. >> Well, thanks for talking. >> Thank you. >> Yeah.
